Heart of Motion

Pilates, Pedals, and Presence

• Susannah Steers / Nicole Howell • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Learn about ways to balance a bustling career, family life, and a passion for fitness with our guest, Nicole Howell. As a North Shore mountain biker, mother, and employment law partner in Vancouver, Nicole brings a unique perspective to integrating movement into a jam-packed schedule. Nicole’s story is a testament to finding joy and presence in everyday motion and making time for what truly matters.

Through her journey, you'll learn about the role of Pilates in maintaining structural health and balance amidst a demanding career. Discover practical insights on creating mental and physical space for growth and relaxation, avoiding the trap of filling every moment with activity. Nicole's commitment to mindful movement offers listeners a roadmap to a sustainable and fulfilling active lifestyle, blending strength and relaxation in harmonious synergy.

About Nicole's work:
HHBG Lawyers - Employment Justice
Nicole Howell empowers employees and help them navigate challenging issues in the workplace (whether it’s a termination, allegations of misconduct, a contract negotiation, or unilateral changes to their job). 
https://hhbg.ca

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Heart of Motion Podcast host Susannah Steers is a Pilates & Integrated Movement Specialist and owner of Moving Spirit Pilates in North Vancouver, BC. She is passionate about movement, about connections and about life.

Through movement teaching, speaking, and facilitating workshops, she supports people in creating movement practices that promote fitness from the inside out. She loves building community, and participating in multi-disciplinary collaborations.

Along with her friend and colleague Gillian McCormick, Susannah also co-hosts The Small Conversations for a Better World podcast – an interview based podcast dedicated to promoting the kind of conversations about health that can spark positive change in individuals, families, communities and across the globe.

Social Media Links:
Moving Spirit Pilates Instagram
Moving Spirit Pilates Facebook

Susannah Steers Instagram

Susannah Steers:

Welcome to the Heart of Motion podcast. I'm Susannah Steers and I'll be your host as we explore the heart, soul and science of movement as a pathway to more active, vibrant and connected living. Nothing happens until something moves, so let's get started.

Susannah Steers:

I am continually fascinated by the million and one different ways that people move and experience physical activity in their lives. Everybody's choices and motivations are so different. Maybe because it means so much to me, I love learning about how and why people move and what it brings to their lives. There are inevitably some really fun stories and places to connect inside those conversations.

Susannah Steers:

Today, I want to introduce you to Nicole Howell, someone we're really happy to have gotten to know at Moving Spirit Pilates over the last year. Nicole is a North Shore mountain biker, a mother and a partner at a boutique employment law firm in Vancouver. She and her family are pretty darned active, so I thought it would be fun to talk to her a little more about her experiences. Welcome to the podcast, Nicole.

Nicole Howell :

Thank you, Susannah. I'm thrilled to be here.

Susannah Steers:

Well, we're recording this at about 9 am and I know you like to get up and moving early, so how did you start your day today?

Nicole Howell :

Well, actually one of my new themes is flexibility. Today is one of those days where I got up at five and worked instead of worked out, because my plan in about an hour and a half is to head out for a mountain bike ride with my dog, and so to fit that in in the middle of the day when the sun is shining, I adjusted my schedule and got up and did some work this morning. Normally I do start my day with a workout, and it is how I like to start most days.

Susannah Steers:

Well, the 5 am dark now. It kind of makes a little bit of a shift in that sometimes if you want to be outside, doesn't it? It's true, it's true. Have you always been an early riser, or is that something that you shifted into after kids came along?

Nicole Howell :

I have always been an early riser, so it's not that hard for me. I mean, it gets a little hard in the darkest dark of winter, um, but it is a very natural. I am a morning person and I have always been a morning person, I mean even as a teenager. I never did the whole sleep in thing, so it is in my DNA to get up early, or I never did the whole sleep in thing, so it is in my DNA to get up early.

Susannah Steers:

I love it. For me, I was always a late sleeper. I didn't do the early early thing until after my son was born and then it was like, well, if I want to have a life, I better do some things before he gets up. So what is a typical morning? You got two kids. You're both busy. You and your partner are both busy with your jobs. What does a typical morning look like at your place?

Nicole Howell :

Typically we get up at five. Both my husband and I and I either do. I do yoga twice a week, I do weights twice a week, I do mountain biking two to three times a week, depending on the weather, depending on the day, and now I also do Pilates twice a week, but I don't do that. Your studio is not open at 5.30.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, remember I said something about not really being an early riser? I mean, I'm up at five, I'm not working at five.

Nicole Howell :

And part of it is to get that done before the kids get up. Right, because with the busyness of life, if you don't get it done before the kids get up, things may not happen. And for me it is like the best cup of coffee although I do still drink it is to get up and get that endorphin rush and feel like I took care of me, no matter what else happens today. I got up and I took care of me.

Susannah Steers:

I love that Sometimes you really do have to kind of create that non-negotiable time, right? That place where you're not going to let anything else get in the way. I mean, I love the flexibility thing that you were talking about. I'm learning that too. There are places where, yes, you have to find somewhere in the day to put it and that might take some planning, but there's a non-negotiable. There's a non-negotiable about getting up and doing that thing.

Nicole Howell :

Absolutely, yeah yeah, it has to be non-negotiable, yeah yeah.

Susannah Steers:

Well, so when do the dog walks happen? Do you do that?

Nicole Howell :

Well, my dog, Coco, is coming with me on the bike ride, so it's like I get to be outside in nature. Today happens to be a beautiful, sunny day. The dog needs to be walked, but she's going to run around in the mountains and I am going to have an absolute blast chasing her down the trail. So it is, I can't wait to go. It'll be the highlight of my, one of the highlights of my day. And so, to be honest, my son walks her every morning before school, a bit of a, you know, a little mini walk, and then I'll, my husband or I, alternate the days that we work from home. So it's a bit of a juggle. He'll take her for a run, I'll take her for a mountain bike ride, and that's how we fit. She fits into our lifestyle.

Susannah Steers:

So right, I don't have a dog in my house anymore, but my son has a dog, so I get to go and pick up the dog on the weekend when he's working and take her out for a walk, and it's one of the great pleasures. I can go out and just hang with her and see the world through her eyes during the day, watch her run around and do her things, and I don't know. It's like a little exercise in presence. You know - when you're there with them 100%.

Nicole Howell :

And even on days, if I've already done my 5am workout and it's time to take her out, it's a great time to talk to my kids. It's you know. It gets all of us outside and being in the forest looking at your dogs thrilled to be there outside. It's just. It really is an amazing thing and I think it improves all of our lives. Even if we weren't active, the mere act of dog walking would be a wonderful thing.

Susannah Steers:

And there is something, especially with teenagers, if you want to have a deep conversation with your kids, you're not sitting down and looking them in the eye and telling them. You know, having that face-to-face. I always found with my son that being out and doing something that's when you really heard the good stuff and you could have those really meaningful conversations.

Nicole Howell :

I've learned the hard way that cross-examining your kids is not effective. And, yes, driving in the car or walking in the forest, and that's when it comes out and you've got to be there for those moments.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, yeah, just show up for those. Well, I want to hear a little more about your mountain biking too, it sounds like that is something that really kind of lights you up.

Nicole Howell :

It does. It is my absolute favorite thing to do. It's how my husband and I met. You know it's funny. I talked to my mountain biking friends and we feel like we are mountain bikers first, and all the other things second. It's almost like a lifestyle it is. It is cuddling up a hill.

Nicole Howell :

I can maybe have a conversation with whoever I'm riding with, or I can watch my dog happily dart in and around the trails, or I can let my mind wander, maybe think about work or a family issue, but then, as soon as I'm going down that hill, it requires every bit of your focus and attention and every rock or root or berm or log, and especially the faster you go, and I like to go fast. So if your attention wanders and if you aren't focused, the consequences can be pretty serious, and so it's like the physical embodiment of mindfulness. But it's also just so much fun. I feel like a big kid and I'm going to be 55 next month and I have a smile on my face when I am in the forest with my dog and when I'm going fast down a trail, and it's just so much fun if you're chasing somebody or trying to take that technical section or find a smoother, faster line. I cannot think about anything else when I'm doing it, and it's my favorite way of moving my body, for sure.

Susannah Steers:

Oh, I love it and I love that you use the word embodiment. It's one of my favorite words, as you can imagine; but especially in this context - that place when you are so completely in your body and in the moment and you just feel so alive. In that state there's no room for anything but the here and the now, and you can go into this state whether you're riding or for me it was dancing a lot of the time. You can go into it feeling a certain kind of way and you come out feeling different. You're more grounded, more balanced I don't know more you.

Nicole Howell :

More joyful just lighter.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, like all the stuff you carried in with you is now kind of you know it may still be there on some t here's not the same weight to it.

Nicole Howell :

It's, yeah, it's flushed through somehow, yeah.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, I have a good friend who works with all kinds of difficult challenges, trauma, that kind of thing, and she talks about it as metabolizing those things, like literally metabolizing them.

Nicole Howell :

That makes so much sense.

Susannah Steers:

So I'm curious is there something for you in kind of living on the edge? You know, you talk about that moment of when you're riding really having to stay super present because you want to go fast and there's roots and there's fast turns and berms and jumps and that kind of stuff. Are you someone who seeks adventure? Do you like to try and conquer your fears, or is it just fun?

Nicole Howell :

Yes to all of those things.

Nicole Howell :

I love it. I seek adventure, I love adrenaline, I love to challenge myself. I mean much like I'm discovering with Pilates, much like I've discovered with yoga, but the same with mountain biking you will never have accomplished everything. You will never be a perfect rider. There was always, always something to work on, even if it's the elements, it's a slick day, it's a snowy day, it's a really dusty, slippery day, there's always some new challenge and I love that. I definitely have. You know, some people describe me as a little intense and it's actually something I'm working on letting go. It's a double-edged sword intensity, because it does carry tension to be intense, and I am trying to release a little of that and be a little more flexible and open. You know, literally and figuratively.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, yeah, well, it's just those places that support us, right? We have habits, we have ways of being, and some of those things will never change, and do we want them to? No, that's what makes us who we are. But in the context of looking after ourselves and finding ways that maybe we don't have to take on every challenge with 100%, maybe there's some ways to split them up a little bit. They don't have to be at the same time what do you find? I mean, you say you're working on it. I'm curious to hear what does that look like for you?

Nicole Howell :

Well, interestingly it coincided with starting with Pilates, because I came into Pilates as a result of an injury. It was something I'd always wanted to try. I'd always heard it was such a good core workout and it works all the little muscles and I wanted to do it. I had been intending to do it for many years, but it was hard to fit into my schedule. So then, when I was injured, I walked in and I had basically tennis elbow from too much training and I'd done a big race and so I couldn't even lift my coffee cup. So I thought what a great time to try Pilates. And so that sort of.

Nicole Howell :

At the same time that I was doing that and becoming very aware of how I was arranging my body, my rib cage, my breathing, when I thought I was relaxing, turned out I wasn't, and just relearning how to arrange my body, I also found out I was going through menopause and I'd sort of benched it because I had a really challenging year in 2022. And I sort of attributed the symptoms to oh, grief and stress and fear of this very, very challenging year. And then, as I spoke to a hormone doctor and had some hormone testing done and realized my cortisol levels were so high it wasn't even registering on the test that I was in a constant state of fight or flight. And truly this is a problem. This is a problem to live longer, and truly this is a problem. This is a problem to live longer. If, if you're in, if your cortisol levels are that high, it will shorten your life changes, literally.

Nicole Howell :

And so this idea, you know it, became my personal mantra was making space and and that. And that coincided so nicely with starting to work with allison at your studio and this idea of making space in my body, opening up my hips, relaxing my rib cage, breathing differently, trying to find all those little muscles and how to activate those when she was talking about because my big dominant muscles were just not used to standing, letting go and not getting involved, and so I was making space in my, and so I was making space in my body, I was making space in my schedule and making space in my mind. I mean, I've meditated fairly regularly, um, but now it is a daily thing. Sometimes twice a day I do a guided meditation and just this idea of making space in my body, in my, in my schedule, so it's not so tightly packed, so there's not so much, things aren't so jammed and I can relax and let go of that tension.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, it's hard not to put new things into the spaces you create, though, isn't it? I'm listening to you talk and I'm thinking, yep, there's so many things that resonate, and that, I know, for me, was always an issue, as I'm trying to make space. The making space has been a huge theme in my life, trying to find ways to not feel so compressed, whether it's physically or in the stress in my world, and that I always found was a really interesting thing, just when you start to think, oh, yeah, okay, I can breathe a little better. And then something pops up and it looks genuinely interesting and you think, oh, I want to do that thing. And then you realize, yeah, but if I do that thing, then I have no space left. So it's sort of a - It takes a lot of focus and a lot of intention to shift gears that way, doesn't it?

Nicole Howell :

And I think because I've known these things intellectually for some time, for years in fact and yet I think it takes that really shifting of perspective. My mother died at the end of 2022. And then realizing I was in menopause and starting hormone replacement therapy, but seeing these cortisol levels and realizing, okay, I'm almost 55. If I don't figure it out now, when will I? Oh, tomorrow, tomorrow, this thing's so important. Tomorrow, tomorrow, no, no. This is your life and you want it to be long. This is it right now.

Nicole Howell :

And if you are choosing not to make that space, if you're choosing to have a tight pack schedule, then you are choosing to be overwhelmed, maybe choosing to take out impatience on your kids, your family. It's going to seep through those cracks and your cortisol levels will remain high. So I think there was this motivation I want to live a long and healthy life. I had kids late. I want to be moving and playing with my grandkids and that's my goal. 85-year-old Nicole wants to be active and he's moving with ease and it's a more powerful voice on my shoulder, because it is going to be too late to make space if I don't make space now.

Susannah Steers:

And did that initially feel like a massive pressure? When you first sort of had that awareness of, oh, I got to make a change, did it feel like another load on your shoulder or did it feel like... I don't know...

Nicole Howell :

And then people pleasing can be a thread that a lot of many people have, whether men or women, realizing where is that coming from? Doing a little work, doing a little work, seeing a counselor, and realizing where is that coming from this perfection, this needing everything? Just, you know, you hear this stuff, you know perfection is the enemy of the good. You hear all this stuff and then suddenly it lands one day and you realize, wait a second, I get it, I get it, I get it and I think I carry too much. And I have these dialogues with myself and talk like, wait a second, why do you feel guilty? What have you haven't done nothing right. So I'm talking myself out of it and I'm having these little dialogues with myself and realizing you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. You're going to say no to this thing and you're going to say no to that thing and you're going to perhaps take on a few less files so that you have time to mentor people.

Nicole Howell :

You know I'm talking professionally now for a minute, but it's about making space in all those moments, because all there's pressure points in everything too many files, too many people to manage, too many activities for the kids too many, too many, too many, and it's just a little adjustment in every single place that can create that space. And it feels so good when you create that space. And it has been a lot easier than I thought and I've been more motivated, for the reasons I mentioned, than than ever before in my life. So it has been. It's a constant conversation because I'm like you. I'll see the shiny object and think, ooh, that looks fun, wait a minute, wait a minute. Nope, it's not more important than these other things. So let's put it away for a rainy day and if it's still really important in six months, you know we'll look at it then.

Susannah Steers:

I love seeing the passions that people have in their lives and how they use that energy out in the world, and I'm just hearing a little bit of that in your profession. You're a lawyer and I get the sense that you're pretty passionate about what you do, what kind of law do you practice?

Nicole Howell :

So I am an employment lawyer, so I act for employees not companies, but employees. So typically there is a power imbalance between employees and employers, and so I level that playing field and I empower people. I empower my clients with knowledge because they don't know their rights and I empower people. I empower my clients with knowledge because they don't know their rights. I mean, almost everybody you know has a job and almost at some point in their lives whether it was the 7-Eleven or whether they were the CEO there has been a problem, and it's not understanding the rights they have in that scenario. Sometimes they just need to understand.

Nicole Howell :

Actually, no, your employer can do this, but here's what you need to bear in mind. It's just about information. Information is power and helping them navigate. There's so many changes when your job has changed or they make allegations of cause or you're terminated All of these issues helping people make sense of them or helping them feel more power in a powerless situation if they've been terminated. I mean, people get terminated all the time and it isn't personal and it happens, but you feel vulnerable and helpless, and so it's just really satisfying.

Nicole Howell :

And every case is different because every person is different and every circumstance is different, and sometimes it is a little bit about the law and sometimes just about okay, so here's the law. Let's talk practically. How will this help you? What can we do? How can we strategize this? Let's look at the options and what will make best sense for you, given your priorities, and it's just really, really satisfying.

Susannah Steers:

Oh, I love it. And did you always want to go into this? Like when you started out as a lawyer, is that where you were headed?

Nicole Howell :

No, no, no, no, it wasn't. I didn't even take an employment class in law school. I was lured by the idea of being a sexy criminal lawyer and doing all that life and liberty stuff. No, I went to a firm in my second year law because they paid for your third year tuition, and I met a man who drove a VW van and had a mountain bike and he was one of the senior partners at the firm and he was an employment lawyer and I just worked for him and he was amazing and in fact he and I left the firm and started the firm that I have now. He is since retired and but still, you know, actively a part of my life personally and professionally. So mountain biking actually.

Susannah Steers:

I was going to say, full circle!

Susannah Steers:

Well, in your work I'm sure you spend a lot of time at a computer and between the stress and the sitting and that kind of thing, I bet it takes a toll on your body. We know that habitual patterns can have a big influence on our structural health and our movement overall and that kind of thing, I bet it takes a toll on your body. We know that habitual patterns can have a big influence on our structural health and our movement overall. Where do you notice? We talked a little bit about the cortisol levels, but where do you notice that stuff accumulating in your body?

Nicole Howell :

I think I mean even as you said, that I can even hear Allison's voice, because my rib cage I always have it high and I have this tendency to arch my back and rib cage high and I'm just always like, okay, putting my hand sort of on the top of my rib cage settle, settle, arrange, relax. I was always aware of the tension I carried in my shoulders, but I think I was. I mean, I just think Pilates is the most intelligent or most aware form of movement I've ever encountered, because, because you're so, mountain biking is more external and Pilates is so internal, so tuned into. How are you settling down? How are you breathing? How are you arranged? What's being activated? What if you move a little to the left? What if you move your hip over here? It's so subtle, it's so nuanced and it gives you this more. I always thought I was strong and athletic and now I feel more completely strong and and it's um. I think I didn't answer your question because I've forgotten what the question was. I got into talking about Pilates.

Susannah Steers:

Well, no, but I think that's great. I mean, you said something about feeling your rib cage high and feeling the tension in your upper body. And I love that some of the things that you're learning are helping you find a way to kind of soften the effects of the workday, or the more riding on your bike.

Nicole Howell :

In everything. It's how I sit at my desk, taking a couple of breaths in between meetings. It has hugely impacted my yoga and I think about it even when I'm riding my bike, when I'm driving my car, and so it was a little bit revelatory. It was very overwhelming and it still is overwhelming and I still have a lot of questions. But I see the progress that I've made and I know I am still carrying tension. It's about rewiring all those little neural pathways so that I am moving in a better way. And so it's like meditation your mind wanders, you bring it back. You don't get mad at yourself, you just hate. Come on back, get get focused. So I'll feel my tension. I'm like come on, Nicole, what does Allison say? There we go, and it's just a gentle little practice of trying to find that and I'm assuming, and I can see that it's becoming easier and a little more.

Susannah Steers:

My own experience with Pilates was coming to it when I was in great physical condition, but I had this chronic pain in my knees. The medical community couldn't do anything more for me and it was just suck it up, sweetheart, and I thought there's got to be a way. And Pilates became the thing. When I first started, they weren't letting me do anything heavy. My teachers made sure that I was working really light, and so I kept saying come on, give me a workout. And it took me a little while to figure out that. Oh wait, a minute. This is as much about learning how to live in my body well as it is about exercise.

Nicole Howell :

So, yeah, for me it's not an intense experience where I get my sweat on. There's other things that do that for me and I'm able to. I might double it up with something else that I do. I might do a mountain bike the same day that I do Pilates, and so I don't have that intention or expectation that I'm going to leave exhausted. And yet, now that I'm doing it more correctly, the more relaxed I am, the harder it is, and I am in fact working all those little muscles and arranging my body to position itself to carry myself stronger in all the other things that I do.

Nicole Howell :

But it isn't an expectation of like I'm heavy breathing or expecting to get my sweat on. But I was never expecting that. And yet what's been surprising is oh, but it is, it's becoming harder as it becomes easier. I said that to Alison the other day and and that it's it's true, as some things are becoming more easy, I'm, I'm realizing, oh, that's in fact quite challenging and that's working that in an important and significant way so that I can move, move in all the other ways, the way that I like, and injury-free, hopefully.

Susannah Steers:

Well, it helps right Again, you're building that foundation from the inside out. And I mean, if you're going hard, injuries are sometimes just part of the package, right, If you're on the edge a little bit. But I think that the things that help is it helps you prevent those injuries as much as possible and on the other side of that, recovery is often quicker.

Nicole Howell :

Well, yeah, I have a little issue right now. It's a few weeks old. I had a little crash and I had a little tear of the tendon in my long-headed bicep, so modifications were easily done, of course, seeing my physio and I was strong going in and I, with a year of Pilates under my belt and I feel like I'm recovering very quickly and I'm more at peace with, rather than pushing it to get back to doing all the pushups and specific things I was doing, I'm, I'm okay. I'm not going to do this, this and this and I'm going to really focus on these things in Pilates tonight.

Nicole Howell :

And I can still ride my bike, just a little less aggressively, and it's remembering I really want to. I'm here for the long game and if I push an injury, I'm not in the Olympics, I'm a middle-aged woman. I just need to recover and be strong so that I continue moving the way I want. And if it means a little couple of more weeks not doing all the things as intensely as I like, then that's what it means and it's been the easiest injury that I've had in that respect.

Susannah Steers:

Oh, that's good. It sounds like you're finding some of the learning around creating space and being able to apply it to this injury too, and the recovery. That's amazing. That's really good. As I get older, I am learning more and more how important it is to support ourselves, whether it's with movement, with rest and restorative stuff the things that nourish our souls with positive inspiration in one form or another. Positive inspiration in one form or another. How do you find motivation, encouragement? Inspiration? How do you find those things?

Nicole Howell :

From day to day, I mean, I'm inspired by all kinds of things. I am a very goal-oriented, naturally a very goal-oriented person typical, maybe, type A personality. And I am actually trying to be less rigid and more flexible so that my goals are less about I'm training for this race. It's more, of course, I may train for a race, but I'm doing that to have a shared experience with a friend that I'm training with the race for, or I'm doing it to collect that experience. Right, it's for me my goals have shifted. It doesn't mean I can't have targets and achievables and a training schedule, but it why am I doing it? I'm doing it to have that experience.

Nicole Howell :

And so I spoke earlier about, you know, 85 year old Nicole. I mean she inspires me. I want to be, I hope to be, mountain biking in a maybe different kind of way at 85 and definitely hiking in the forest and practicing Pilates and practicing yoga and picking up my grandkids and horsing around and continuing to move with ease and mobility, having that mobility. So I guess my future inspires me. I want to have that future and it's it's. I have to make intelligent choices now about how I move my body, what I, how I nourish my body so that I can achieve that down the road.

Susannah Steers:

Yeah, it's the long game, right, the longevity. We're in this for longevity.

Nicole Howell :

I know that word is getting tossed around a lot these days, but it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susannah Steers:

If you had one little nugget to share with other people about life, something you've learned along the way that feels important to you, what would it be?

Nicole Howell :

I mean there's a quote that pops to mind that I, you know I discovered this quote in law school and something along the lines of being convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And it's resonated. That quote has always been in my mind. I remember, you know, typing it out and giving it to my friends in law school and it's meant different things to me at different stages of my life. Because life can be hard, life will be hard, life will be difficult. Some of it is of your own making, as I've been discovering, and this gets back to the making space and some of it is just sad and hard and unlucky and how you react to it, how you grow, the decisions you make as a result of going through it.

Nicole Howell :

Life is about how you react to the things that happen to you, rather than burying it but truly experiencing it and planting those seeds for growth and making different decisions in the future.

Nicole Howell :

You know, being present in the moment I mean it's so, particularly with my profession as lawyers you can blink and wake up and 10 years goes by and you know people talk about being in that sort of automaton state and you don't want to do. You want to be present in the moment and choosing to the best you can, the idea that there are things you can control and make good choices to create that space and be present in those moments. And there's times in life when you can't. You're subsumed into a very intense period at work, but then that period will end, or a very intense period in your personal life a dying parent, a sick kid and then you will come out of those moments and how do you bounce back is, I think, what will define how you enjoy your life and what you gain out of it. So long answer, but I do think that that would be my answer.

Susannah Steers:

I think that's a good answer, the way it means different things in different phases of your life. Thank you so much, Nicole, for taking the time with me today and sharing your life and your experiences. I feel like I got to get to know you a little better, and that always makes me happy.

Nicole Howell :

I feel the same way. It was an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, Susannah.

Susannah Steers:

Take care and we'll see you soon.

Nicole Howell :

Absolutely. Bye-bye.

Susannah Steers:

Okay, bye-bye.

Susannah Steers:

I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Subscribe and, if you love what you heard, leave a five-star review and tell people what you enjoyed most. Join me here again in a couple of weeks For now let's get moving.

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